Curse

boko · May 15, 2007, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

You OBVIOUSLY never played PvP when the Nolani Wand was un-nerfed. It had a 10 or 15% IAS attached to it, as well as 5 energy unconditional. Warriors would equip it in order to gain adrenaline quickly, without having to beat on a target with their primary weapon. It meant that they could charge skills without engaging. This is still true, as you get the +5e and longer range of the wand, so that you can safely build adren. It was never used as a caster weapon...

Wand with 15% IAS nerfed. IT changed to +5 energy wand with 25% dmg vs charr... GG... They corrected the unbalances...what advanatages are you talking about? Morgan shield too? Nerfed.

Only one that ANET has omitted to correct is the pets. Expect that soon with enough QQ.

FYI, I had one of those 15%IAS wand in my inv that I used for PvP. Sold as soon as they nerfed it to get a +5 energy spear with hp mods...

Added : As for the Op's stance, dun't care. But I hate that HvH is put on same podium as GvG.

Ensign · May 15, 2007, 10:43 AM // 10:43

PvP items are always blue text. You can only get gold and green text items in PvE.

.defekt · May 15, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

You don't have to pay money to customize weapons for your PvP chars.

SotiCoto · May 15, 2007, 11:57 AM // 11:57

PvE characters are meant to play PvE; not PvP. If they want to do things for which they were not intended then they should have to work their butts off for them. Afterall, nobody is stopping the person just rolling up a fully prepped PvP character... If they want to make themselves look pretty, there is no reason it should be given to them on a silver platter.

As for PvE characters having an advantage in PvP.... it is at best absolutely minimal. Nothing to complain about... and there are heinous inconveniences in even getting such things besides.

There is literally NOTHING VALID TO WHINE ABOUT HERE!

lyra_song · May 15, 2007, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Well i was thinking, on the train on my way here to the office, about the whole idea that a PvE char is better.

One way to look at it is...a PvP player with a PvE char has an advantage over a PvP player without any PvE chars (ie: a PVP only account), since the PvPer who has a PvE char can go into PvE and get things the other one cannot get as easily.

However that same PvE character does not neccessarily have an advantage vs the PvP chararacter of the same profession.

Purely on character vs character basis, the PvP char has the advantage of being able to switch armors, builds, skills and primaries much more easily than the PvE char.

Ive also been wondering about as to how a PvP-only account could gain access to those PvE items that Narcism mentioned. I think its highly plausible for a good PvPer to make money through HoH drops and buy said items through GWG, or through in game traders (who are in Temple of Balthazar or other PvP areas), and actually nullify this said advantage, simply through their own skill. Not to say that this would be easy or quick to do.

Yichi · May 15, 2007, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

PvE characters are meant to play PvE; not PvP. If they want to do things for which they were not intended then they should have to work their butts off for them. Afterall, nobody is stopping the person just rolling up a fully prepped PvP character... If they want to make themselves look pretty, there is no reason it should be given to them on a silver platter.

As for PvE characters having an advantage in PvP.... it is at best absolutely minimal. Nothing to complain about... and there are heinous inconveniences in even getting such things besides.

There is literally NOTHING VALID TO WHINE ABOUT HERE!

/agree 99%, but there are still 2 major things that need to be equaled between the 2 classes.

The only major difference that you can have in the balance between PVE and PVP characters is the Pet evolution and the lower req 7 & 8 shields that a pvp character cannot create. While Tommy from iQ does have a max req7 shield, its one of few shields in the game like it, yet it is vital. 7 is the breakpoint for balanced stance @ 8 seconds, so this shield will work great for casters needing to use balanced stance such as an infuser for example. The other being the pet situation, having another 60 health on your pet can mean a great difference depending on the build. Since pets are vital to thumpers, aka applying dazed to casters when knocked down, the extra 60 health is far more beneficial than having an extra 2 damage out of your pet....

SotiCoto · May 15, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

/agree 99%, but there are still 2 major things that need to be equaled between the 2 classes.

The only major difference that you can have in the balance between PVE and PVP characters is the Pet evolution and the lower req 7 & 8 shields that a pvp character cannot create. While Tommy from iQ does have a max req7 shield, its one of few shields in the game like it, yet it is vital. 7 is the breakpoint for balanced stance @ 8 seconds, so this shield will work great for casters needing to use balanced stance such as an infuser for example. The other being the pet situation, having another 60 health on your pet can mean a great difference depending on the build. Since pets are vital to thumpers, aka applying dazed to casters when knocked down, the extra 60 health is far more beneficial than having an extra 2 damage out of your pet....

*Shrugs*

They're under the selection of minimal stuff that I don't give a toss about and don't figure anyone else should either.

I mean... sure... for one individual person it might be enough to give them a slight advantage / disadvantage... very slight.... There is as much of an advantage / disadvantage in taking one slightly different skill.

What you're pointing out is something that will only make a difference if both sides are running perfectly balanced builds and one person on one side has slightly more armour or a pet with slightly more health.

*Shrugs*
As for the pet thing.... I don't know why more people don't just use the Black Moa anyway...

Orinn · May 15, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Posted by Narcism

-Dire/Hearty Pets
True. Pet evolutions should be selectable on creating the pet.

-Non-9 stat req gear.
This has always been a mistake. I see the post a bit later about the req 7 max armor tactics shield, and just cringe. Any good solution for fixing this imbalance?

-Variable attribute req. weapons (shields in pve can require tactics or strength)
I just checked this: Shields in PvP can require tactics or strength as well (Command and Motivation, too...)

-Runic Shield (+5 energy shield)
AL6 and req 4 tactics. Is this really that good? I think my monk would run a higher AL shield with -damage stance if i was speccing into tactics.

-+5 energy unconditional wands
Where do these exist? I know the wayward wands in Divine Path are +5e >50. Never seen one that's +5e unconditional. Is there a collector out there for them (and if so, what's the damage on those wands?)

-Wintergreen Wand (14 damage unconditional)
Ridiculous, and it should be changed. I doubt anyone who's actually interested in balance would disagree that this should be cut at least in half.

-A PvE character farms gold if needed to get the above, a pvp can't.
However, one good HoH chest drop, and you're set. Ghostly Hero minipet (a HoH chest exclusive) still sells for quite a bit. Some of the most expensive (read: pure profit) weapon skins in the game drop from the HoH chest.

-A PvE characters gets free 30k+ every year to sell to idiots (minipet)
Very few minipets sell for this much. I just got my first 2, a Fungal Wallow and a Hydra. Anyone gonna buy BOTH of those for 30k, much less 30k apiece?

The wintergreen wand is legitimately a problem. The Req 7 and Req8 shields another. Are there any low-req gear BESIDES shields that causes problems? I can see the problem with req 7 shields, but would a req 7 wand or offhand be as problematic?

Dire and Hearty pets should be selectable for PvP play. +5e unconditional wands and wintergreen wands should honestly get the Nolani wand treatment: fix them across all current items. I'm not certain what to do with req 7 and req 8 shields.

I really would like to see an even playing field between PvE characters and PvP characters. That means both ways.

And we STILL have people suggesting that the only way anyone should be able to play in PvP is to roll a PvP character. People who have missed the entire point of the OP, and a lot of the discussion that has gone on here. To those who would say "just roll a PvP character," you missed the entire point.

Orinn · May 15, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

You OBVIOUSLY never played PvP when the Nolani Wand was un-nerfed. It had a 10 or 15% IAS attached to it, as well as 5 energy unconditional. Warriors would equip it in order to gain adrenaline quickly, without having to beat on a target with their primary weapon. It meant that they could charge skills without engaging. This is still true, as you get the +5e and longer range of the wand, so that you can safely build adren. It was never used as a caster weapon...

OK, just saw this one, so now I see where the +5e unconditional wands are from. The Wiki lists these as req 5 fire, +5e, +25% vs. Charr. Does it have an IAS on top of that? At any rate, yes, this should be added as an inscription, or removed. ANet needs to pick one.

Yichi · May 15, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

SotiCoto, you obviously don't pvp much, otherwise these are a big deal. I pointed out both reasons why they are a big deal in PVP that a PVE char can still have an advantage, whether it be major or minor. I have been in matches and seen times that the 8 extra armor from that shield can reduce damage enough to get that last heal off to save your monk and reverse the spike and end up saving the match. I have been in matches and seen times where that extra 60 hp saved your pet from dying and the thumper got the dazed on the monk and caused the monk to be effectively shut down and reversed the push the other team was making and eventually collapsed from the monk dying due to it. These are the differences that CAN be there. I'm not saying they always will be situations where it is needed. Most of the time there isn't a difference in situations, but it CAN happen and some people will build characters in case this situation arrived. Just because its an issue that you don't care about, doesn't mean that its not an issue that others don't care about.

Not everyone wants a huge emo bird... Black Moa's are elder in pet evolution and do not receive an extra damage boost a dire pet receives, or the extra health the hearty pets have. It comes down to personal preference on pets. personally the black moa's are crap.

Orinn, The nolani wand used to have an ias boost as well as the +5 energy. The ias boost was removed, but the +5 unconditional energy is still there.

Red Locust · May 16, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Hi

none of those are reasons why people bring pve chars to pvp. People use pve toons in pvp because the armor looks good, all other items you can get for all your pvp chars with just 1 guy farming for them, which is what everyone who's not interested in shiny armor does.

except for maybe a very low lvl pet in a very specific build, that would be reason to bring a pve ranger.

Or, here's another theory. You're wrong. There are LOTS of PvPers who have PvE characters simply because they have an advantage of items that you simply cannot get as a PvP character. One of the better examples is the shield that Tommy (was in QQ, now iQ) owns. It is req7 Tactics, +30hp and -3 (while hexed). This is a whole 2 tactics less than a PvP shield, which means that Tommy can spec higher into other attributes, but also due to the req7, can spec 7 in Tactics easily, and get the full 16AL.

step 1: read the post
step 2: comment on the post

not the other way around

Guardian of the Light · May 16, 2007, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Will the PvE vs PvP debate ever end?

I'm kind of neutral on this issue as a PvPvEr

. On one side an equal playing field is KEY to PvP in Guild Wars (that's why we got rid of or toned down things like the Lt. Helm) on the other and PvP lacks decent rewards. On the other without unique skins or unique stats PvE gets kind of boring and it's hard to disiguish yourself from the other players.

Not matter who wins this debate I'll get something out of it.

PvPvE FTW!

Skuld · May 16, 2007, 12:35 AM // 00:35

@Narcism ~ PvP chars can get minipets, opened one a coupla weeks ago.

Orinn · May 16, 2007, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Will the PvE vs PvP debate ever end?

Not likely, but this thread hasn't really gotten into that much, it's more of a "why are things this way" with a lot of ideas and information going around. This is actually a relatively civil discussion, always a good thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

I'm kind of neutral on this issue as a PvPvEr

. On one side an equal playing field is KEY to PvP in Guild Wars (that's why we got rid of or toned down things like the Lt. Helm) on the other and PvP lacks decent rewards. On the other without unique skins or unique stats PvE gets kind of boring and it's hard to disiguish yourself from the other players.

One of my main goals in this thread is to try and convince people that it doesn't HAVE to be either/or. Equipment available to one type of player, but not another, is a problem. I believe that the skill unlocks are a similar problem in the other direction: available to PvP-only characters, but not to PvE characters. Either way, balance HAS to be the primary concern, since this thread deals mostly with PvP issues (and the difficulty of bringing a PvE character into PvP.)

1: PvP lacks decent rewards.

Gotta agree here. Most people don't hae every single skill unlocked for PvP play, but some do. the trouble is, there is no continuing reward system. Once you get a skill or mod or skin unlocked, it's unlocked, no further investment needed. ANet needs to come up with a continuing way to "drain"" balthazar faction from players, by giving limited rewards. Vanity stuff only, although trading in a LOT of faction for a weapon whose skin cannot be unlocked (say, one of the new Design-a-weapon winners) would be interesting. The only source for these weapons would be PvP play, and each one would represent a LOT of time and effort PvPing. They could be sold, and make their way into PvE, but balthazar faction would be the only way to create one? Ongoing reward, in the form of a tangible thing that could be kept or sold.

2: without unique skins or unique stats PvE gets kind of boring and it's hard to distiguish yourself from the other players.

Unique or rare skins, sure, becaue they have no impact on a match. unique stats on a weapon are trouble, though. Especially when a weapon cannot be replicated through the PvP weapon creation screen. The +5 energy unconditional might make absolutely no difference in 99 out of 100 matches, but that one match in 100 where it was the wand that made the difference is too many matches. GW is not supposed to be about who has the best gear stat-wise. Collector's weapons, Greens, and pvP-only weapons are all generally on the same power level- perfect damage and inherent (or inscription), with mods of the player's choosing. When something exists in the game that cannot be replicatede elsewhere, it's unfair. So yes for unique skins, but unique item attributes is just a bad thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Not matter who wins this debate I'll get something out of it.

PvPvE FTW!

Where you see a debate, I see an opportunity. If more threads were like this, the whole PvE vs. PvP nonsense might just stop once and for all. If some of the suggestions in this thread went in, PvE characters would have the option to go to PvP and not be hindered, and PvP characters wouldn't have to deal with opponents who have things that they can't obtain themselves. More people playing PvP + a more balanced setting between PvE and PvP characters in PvP = win/win. If more PvE players become at least PvPvE players instead, then PvP wins. And since PvE characters can actually get into PvP, PvE players have more optional things to do with characters: PvE wins.

I'm all in favor of win/win situations, ones where everyone comes out ahead. And still disappointed with people who want to make it difficult to enjoy PvP with a favorite character. The first step in getting rid of the whole PvP vs. PvE debate altogether is not to force them together, but make it worthwhile to play both.

Trevor · May 16, 2007, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Players who want to do both PvE and PvP? Great. Let 'em.

I don't see why the two have to be intertwined though. Why should PvPing have any direct benefit in PvE?

TheMosesPHD · May 16, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

I don't understand why you would consider deleting your PvE characters just because you don't play them anymore. A PvP char can be rerolled in the speed of lightning. I can understand wanting to perhaps have two PvP slots or maybe just maybe even three for super speedy rerolling, but Deleting most all of your PvEs?

You've already spent tons of time and effort on them, why just delete them on a whim? Even if you don't play them anymore you still have them lying around in case you ever feel like it...

Guardian_Angel_MP · May 16, 2007, 04:49 AM // 04:49

I know this is my first post in this forum, but i've been an account-less lurker for quite a while.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

PvE characters are meant to play PvE; not PvP.

This statement is completely wrong. PvE characters were ment to play BOTH PvE and PvP, that's why they can access both. PvP only characters were only introduced to GW three to four months before release because people didn't want to have to bring a new character up everytime they wanted to try something new. Slowly over the past two years PvP only characters have lost their dependance on PvE character progress (skill/item unlocks for example) and are almost completely independant of PvE when it comes to necessities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

If they want to do things for which they were not intended then they should have to work their butts off for them. Afterall, nobody is stopping the person just rolling up a fully prepped PvP character... If they want to make themselves look pretty, there is no reason it should be given to them on a silver platter.

........Why? That was the original argument, and it was somewhat valid back when, but now that Anet is finishing up cutting ties of PvP to PvE why not make it easier for PvE characters to PvP? I'm sure if they did allow PvP character-type editing to PvE characters, while in PvP zones, Anet would see more people doing PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isaiah Cartwright

Well, I think its a flaw in our system. I think the PvP character screen needs to be expanded and allow you to match what the PvE character can. And i think certain items, certain things that have existed in the game that are too good that only PvE character can get. You've seen that we've been trying to fix those. We've added different items to the PvP character screen. We've added certain bonuses to different places to try to make it more of a level field. You'll continue to see that level of stuff all throughout the game, and we will do our best to make PvP characters can be just as good as PvE characters. We'll probably always keep the distinction between two that you get to look cool as a PvE character, thats your thing. You get to have the sexy outfit, you get to have the awesome weapons. And a PvP character should be just as functional as a PvE character, but he should just look a little less cool.

I was reading through the post that lyra_song linked to back toward the beginning of the thread and something that she quoted Isaiah Cartwright as saying caught my eye.....and made me laugh a little.

Plague · May 16, 2007, 10:53 AM // 10:53

If PvP characters are convenience items, that would dictate that ANet originally intended that PvP would be fought exclusively between PvE players. That is, if you wanted a new build, you would have to go through a days or week-long process of constructing it before you could even try it.

Now imagine the pain in the butt that would have been.

Now, are PvP characters still convenience items? Does the fact that you can reroll a PvP player so easily innately cause them to be less important, less deserving of "being pretty?" If PvP slots weren't so disposable, would they then deserve the right to wear 15k?

The way I see it, PvE players have earned the right to purchase 15k and wear it as they so choose. A PvP player hasn't earned anything by having skills, abilities, unlocks etc. dropped into their lap whenever a reroll occurs. Not to say there are not PvP-only accounts out there that have worked long and hard to unlock everything without ever touching PvE. How do you distinguish between those two? One has worked equally hard as a PvE character, in my opinion, while another just supplements a PvE account.

Subsequently, where's the fairness in labeling PvP characters as mere tools instead of avatars?

You know, in a way, I'd like there to be PvP character birthdays. If you have a PvP character that has lasted a whole year, there should be some reward for that besides a mini. I'm tempted to say you're entitled the right to unlock five 15k armor pieces or rare skins, but that also seems a little unfair to me for some reason.

lyra_song · May 16, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian_Angel_MP

I was reading through the post that lyra_song linked to back toward the beginning of the thread and something that she quoted Isaiah Cartwright as saying caught my eye.....and made me laugh a little.

That whole thing you quoted makes me laugh now. I guess the "We'll probably" part translates to "We wont".

Anet continues to imbalance the game with PvE accessible weapons thats difficult for a PvPer only to get. And now they added ways for PvPers to get the "sexy outfit"(vanity armor) and the "awesome weapons" (inscribable HoH weapons...these need to be allowed to drop in PvE soon).

--------------------
Plague:

To me, ive always felt that PvE vanity armors are PvE content and since PvP chars cannot access PvE content, they shouldnt have access to it.

Also as someone pointed out, what a crappy reward that is. Give the good PVPer a reward of armor thats already available to majority of the PvErs. Wheres the distinction to show that you "won". I can imagine how that must feel...

My idea was for the PvP reward to gain access to PVP-ONLY ASCENDED ARMORS . Thats more appropriate and a better reward to make the distinction.

Plague · May 16, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

That'd be nice, but I'm especially doubtful it would ever happen. ANet seems to struggle with getting armor out the door. It's apparently very low priority.

Too bad. I'm aching for any ascended female Elementalist armor that isn't horrible to look at. I'm riding around in 1.5k Canthan.